By Design

Katie Dill on designing effective reviews

Episode Summary

From the “Hey, can I get your eyes on this?” request for feedback to the “Final Executive Review,” so much of our work involves gathering and processing input from other people. In her time leading design teams at companies like Airbnb, Lyft, and most recently as the Head of Design at Stripe, Katie Dill has learned setting the right amount of context with the right people at the right stage is critical to success. She says that it’s important to take the time to design your review process — including your ability to facilitate.

Episode Notes

Head of Design at Stripe Katie Dill says that it’s important to take the time to design your review process — including your ability to facilitate. She shares how setting the right amount of context with the right people at the right stage can be critical to success.

By Design is a show about the process of designing exceptional digital experiences. In each episode, our host, Josh Brewer, dives deep into a specific stage of the design lifecycle with an industry leader. Our hope is that hearing their insight can help us shape a better future for design.

If you’re interested in improving the design process at your organization, see how Abstract can help. 

Episode Transcription

Josh: Welcome to By Design, a show about the process of designing exceptional digital experiences. I'm your host Josh Brewer. And in this series, we will look at the different stages in the lifecycle of designing digital products. Each week, we'll hear from experts with an intimate understanding of what particular stage what has, and hasn't worked for them and how we might all apply these insights in order to shape a better future for design.

Josh: Ahhh, the review. From the “hey can I get your eyes on this?” request for feedback to the “Final Executive Review” so much of our work involves gathering and processing input from other people. There are reviews to discuss strategy and reviews for the goals, Product reviews, Design reviews, Engineering reviews, and even CEO and Executive reviews. Everybody wants a review! Honestly, it can all be pretty overwhelming, especially when you just want to stay focused and do good work. 

And even more so for Design, where we are still dealing with the legacy of the “grand reveal” — this elaborate setup —  which, according to Katie Dill, can often lead to contaminated and biased feedback. 

Katie has seen a lot of Reviews in her career and her perspective has been shaped by the experience she has had leading design teams at companies like Airbnb, Lyft, and now as the Head of Design at Stripe. She has learned that setting the right amount of context with the right people at the right stage is critical to success. Taking the time to actually design the review and developing your ability to facilitate can make a dramatic difference. 

If you want to make lasting change, you're going to need to bring people along with you. And reviews are a really helpful way to do that. 

It turns out, there is no “one size fits all” when it comes to Reviews and if you’ve ever felt that you and your team aren’t getting the most out of your Reviews, then this episode is for you. Let’s go.

Josh: Katie tell me a little bit about yourself. 

Katie: Well, thanks for having me so nice to be on the podcast with you. I suppose a leader in the field of design and technology, I'm joining Stripe as the Head of Design. Before that, as you had mentioned, I was at Lyft and before that I was on Airbnb so I've gotten the chance to work for some really interesting companies that maybe the one common thread between all of them is trying to, kind of disrupt the status quo to create experiences that are more effective and powerful for the humans that they serve. But before I was doing all this design stuff, I came into the kind of industry through, maybe a back door, I suppose.

I grew up on the East coast. Didn't know what design was for most of my life. And only came into design post-college when I came out to California to study industrial design. And other than that important things to know is that I'm a mom of twin girls. They're about seven months old, I’ve got a dog named Snacks. And I live in San Francisco. 

Josh: That's awesome. And industrial design. How did that come about? 

Katie: Yeah. Well to be honest with you, I feel pretty fortunate having learned the physical design space because, frankly it, any form of design that we're, you might be learning whether it's in school or elsewhere, I hope what the person is taking away is a methodology, a process, a way of thinking and a set of tools. Right? So, it's about trying to understand the problem. It's really about squarely putting the end user and those affected by what you do front and center, using iteration and creative thinking to develop new solutions.

And prototyping them, visualizing them and determining that they're worth, all of these things are, could be applied to really just about anything. And so really you're right off the bat taught to think more broader scope than the actual thing right in front of you. And I do wish more of that kind of education was brought to things like graphic design or digital design, because it's really easy to get tunnel vision into the pixels versus thinking about the person standing on the side of the road, using their phones, sitting in the bus, driving a car, or laying down in their bed, and all of the, the physical ramifications of that product that you're creating. And so I do think it's imperative that we think beyond, that one design, that scope that you have in front of you, so thankful for what industrial design has done for that.

And so my trajectory really, I went to Frog Design and it's a company that does both physical and digital. And I just happened to work on things that were both. So I wouldn't say that there was a switch where I moved over to digital. It was kind of like, I had the experience to be able to work on things that are really, anything from digital, physical to maybe even that's something that doesn't have a physical manifestation.

And that's where my work has taken me. And even today, my work is clearly a combination of physical and digital if you think about Lyft or Airbnb, for example. 

Josh: Right where the real world and the digital world are meeting in a very real intersection. And constantly these are core elements of how we operate in the world. In both of those companies, you listed that it is deeply human centric and knowing enough of the folks that were at both of those companies early on, to know that that DNA kind of got embedded in there. I really appreciate you kind of putting that front and center because I do think that this notion of understanding the environment, the humans that are involved in it, their mental, physical, emotional, cognitive states, while interacting with whatever product it is or service that we're designing is as critical, if not more so than the actual mechanics of whatever interaction we're trying to design for.

And, and I'm really delighted to hear you just kind of sharing that right out of the gate. So appreciate that, Katie. 

Katie: Absolutely. I mean, one of the things that I would often talk about on the team, both Airbnb and Lyft is 99% of the experiences offline. It's like you might use the app or the website to book a place to stay or to book that ride. But it really comes down to  sitting in the back of a car with somebody you've never met before, or, driving strangers around or somebody's sleeping at your house and these are the experiences that you're trying to make great. And you might not be physically there to be able to do anything about it.

So yes, you're using a digital platform to kind of create that experience or to teach a host or teach a driver how to provide great hospitality. So it's a little bit of voodoo that you're trying to do, but really  what matters the most is how people feel having gone through that experience and all of the physical ways that impacts them.

Josh: It's really fun, honestly, to hear you talking about that. I think it is really easy for most of us who work in this deeply digital space to maybe lose a teeny bit of that sensitivity. That awareness to bring that forward constantly actually is I think it's a muscle you have to develop and you have to exercise it.

And the fact that our tools are what they are and that our work is digital by its nature. I think it, it kind of like exacerbates that a bit. And so talking about it on your team, making it front and center, even building processes and ways to make sure that you're accounting for that I think become really, really valuable in the process. One of the questions I do have for you is actually what motivates you to stay curious? 

Katie: Yeah. I hope it's something that's kind of been embedded in all designers. Right.   I think we, we unfortunately all have, it's both a blessing and a curse, this probably intuition or this, natural tendency to look at things and wonder like, well, why is it that way?

And why can't it be better? So,  we're a critic of all of the things around us, but I do hope,  we're we're, we all come at it with an open mind and that, that really is it for me. I just, I want to be better and I want to kind of see how things can be better for our planet and for others.

And so I think that's where my curiosity motivation comes from. And I suppose, I hope it's also a good dose of optimism to think that things can be better is it a key part of that? 

Josh: That is interesting. I had not connected those two things together until you just said that. And I think I tend to fall in that camp.

I think I'm more optimistic in general. Although, I have recognized that I definitely do have a pessimistic side that I have to kind of monitor, but I think there's a healthy tension in there, but the belief that it can be better and that. That desire can quite often be the catalyst for the curiosity that sends you down a path, in hopes of understanding something deeply enough to be able to affect change. 

Katie: Great point and I think designers need to be courageous, like the ability to look at a blank piece of paper and put something down that proposes a new way of doing things is incredibly hard and it definitely requires courage to put yourself out there and put your ideas out there. And so we all require that courage, but I think there is definitely a slippery scope of where you might have so much courage that you can become presumptuous or maybe even slightly arrogant. And we all need to check our humility.

It's like, so yeah, I'm curious. I think things can and should be better, but I want to also be careful to like, truly understand the circumstances before I go putting my point of view out there. 

Josh: I feel like what you just described could be applied to just about any design problem, just about it. I'm thinking back in like almost everything I can think of having touched, like the, the degree to which you think you understand the totality of the problem at the beginning and the assumptions you come in and, and biases and things, you project on it versus like, A) just doing some of the work to dig in and then B) getting it in front of other human beings who are not you.

And don't think like you, that moment, right? Oh, Hmm. I might have been a little bit limited in my understanding of what I'm trying to do here. That's amazing. So on this episode, we're talking about reviews. And when I say the review, it feels like there's only one, which we could probably spend the entire time just talking about the legacy baggage of the grand reveal.

But we'll get to some of it. The question I'd love to start with is, when we talk about reviews in the context of the design life cycle, what, what comes to mind for you? What immediately just pops out. 

Katie: Oh, man. I feel like I've spent a lot of my design career around this notion of reviews and how to do them well and when to do them right. And all of this. So a lot comes to mind, honestly, as you talk about that, and I guess I could put it in three major buckets. There's the, like the who, the what and the when, and all three are often a total mess, various companies and organizations. And I think kind of what you alluded to is one, it's just like, reviews, plural.

Uh, there are a lot of reviews and that is definitely a consistent theme that I hear about at just about any company. I mean, most companies suffer from too many meetings and then,   a big part of that, especially in the work of product development are, different types of reviews. So there's reviews to discuss.

What the strategy is the reviews discuss the goals. There's PM reviews and Eng reviews and design reviews and CEO reviews. And everybody wants a review and I  talk to folks that are trying to do the work. And they oftentimes feel really overwhelmed by all of that.  When I started at Airbnb, the design team was 10 people when I left.

My team was a hundred designers and at Lyft, very similarly we grew, I forget exactly how much, but from 45 to like 150 or something like that. It clearly needs to be different from day one and you're constantly evolving the system to be more appropriate. So yeah. I have a few opinions on the who, what, when of review. So you let me know how you want to tackle this. 

Josh: Yeah. Why don't we start with the difference between a proper review and feedback. Because I see these two words and, or the activities kind of being used interchangeably. And I've personally seen that there is very much a difference between the two or maybe it's that it's a spectrum, especially in explorative design work. How much of it is feedback versus review. And do you have any, any thoughts on kind of the difference between those two. 

Katie: Yeah, can you tell me what the differences are to you? 

Josh: For those listening, that was a great example of leadership in turning the question around and getting the other person to answer. It was fantastic. For me, I look back on my especially early career, but most of it, I think I looked for and solicited continual feedback in the process sometimes from people with knowledge of what I was tackling, because they have the context. And so the shorthand is a lot easier, other times explicitly from people who have no context, because I want to get that raw reaction.

I'm looking for some sort of data, some sort of something in that process to either validate or invalidate what something I currently am holding. And then I think re in my mind reviews are always a step above in fidelity rigor, expectations.

Katie: I think what you're pointing out there too is I think an essential part of doing reviews successfully is the expectation setting and being really clear with those on both sides, the presenters versus the audience, for example, as to  what is expected there and the level of fidelity. Okay. Yeah, I guess the way I had originally been thinking about it, it's just like feedback is  the verb and review is the noun. And feedback can happen, in, or outside of reviews. But I much prefer the way that you are looking at it. I think, for one why I think reviews and our feedback is so important are some of the reasons that you mentioned, right? It's just like absolutely getting people that maybe are a little less close to the work to help test some of the assumptions that is just so important.

Let's say you want to completely change the way your company works, or you have a new  innovation that you want to ship, or even just, an iteration. You want to bring the rest of the. Yeah, more people along with you, because very little thing, very little things you do are going to be something that can be done by just one person or one team.

Right? So if you want to make lasting change, you're probably going to want to bring more folks along with you. So reviews are really helpful way to do that. But the key part, where I think a lot of reviews go wrong is again, as I mentioned that the who, the what, and the, when I think, knowing.

When to do reviews and also planning for them in advance. I see a lot of  project plans get put together and it's like, it's going to take us three weeks to do this. And two weeks to do that,  here we go. And then next thing it's like, well, over budget and it's gone three times as long because the feedback cycle was too long and they waited to hear back from people or it took too long to schedule.

And it's like whose fault is that? It may take longer to get things scheduled and get the right people in the room. And that can be extremely frustrating and really put a damper on your timeline. But whose fault is that, did you not account for that in the beginning when you built the project plan?

How, how might you better anticipate the stages of review so that it doesn't become disruptive. And then in terms of stages of review, I am a big proponent of, as I said, bringing people along with you, but. I think you have to design that experience because if you allow people to just like drop in and drop out and have opinions every stage of the way, and they want to see everything that can really slow down a process and be extremely disruptive.

So you do have to design that like, okay, these key milestones, we're going to reach out to other members of the organization to get their feedback, or okay. This milestone where we're actually,  we're trying to decide on which idea to go forward with, or this is the go or no go decision.

These are the moments we're going to bring the leadership team in. Right. And so before even work begins, you start to design that process. Who do you bring in when what is the value of that person in the room? What are they supposed to bring? And there's plenty of different models that you can use to help, like, make sure you're asking yourself the right question, like a RACI, for example, and determining, who is the decision maker.

Who's just providing insight that we don't have, who just needs to be informed about what we're doing. And so you determine that, who's in the room, you know why they know why you want them in the room and what is expected from them. So that way they kind of like stay as well as possible on the right track.

That's useful to the team. And then very lastly, The "what" this is key. And I think you brought that up in the beginning. It's just the, maybe the definition between feedback and review at a review you really want to, again, design the experience to which people are, are learning about the work. If they have no insight whatsoever, how do you help them get up to speed? How do you give them enough information to be useful in their feedback versus, wasting their time versus leaving them in a lurch? You really do need to think that through, I am a big fan of prototypes and getting as real as possible with the work that you're showing.

And frankly, I'm not a big fan of the big setup. I see a lot of reviews where it's like, okay, this is our goal. This is what we're trying to do. These were our constraints. These are issues. This is how we're doing it. Oh, and here's the product. And by the time you see it, you're just like so contaminated with all of that setup that your feedback is, basically as good as somebody who's been entrenched in the work and therefore is.

It's pretty biased. So I do like that the minimal setup so that you can experience the work almost like a user would experience the work right. And not have all of that background so that you can give feedback that is much more closely aligned to who is actually going to be seeing this work. I think if we do all these things, right, I think reviews can be truly valuable and, and thought of, to be less disruptive than they are often looked at as.

Josh: There is so many things in what you just shared that I have a feeling folks are going to be like gravitating to and picking up on a couple of them that really come out to me. One is just first acknowledging that there is no one size fits all. I think you, you made that point in a few different ways and the, different points in time and the different stakeholders that are involved, it means that,  there is an intentionality that you.

I think need to bring to the process of reviewing work. If we design it's like many things we actually have to design, not just the thing, but how we design the thing. Right? One thing that stood out to me, that's interesting. And maybe. I don't know, maybe, maybe we don't share the same view on this one, but I'm curious to tease it apart, which is, I've been a huge proponent of making design as observable as possible.

And in my career that was largely motivated by people showing up to reformal reviews with zero context, no, no context whatsoever, and then not being able to really to your point provide the kind of feedback that the team needed in that moment. But instead like totally rabbit holeing on something that had nothing to do with anything.

It's classic moments where in my career, I've put a grayscale filter over the top of the designs so that we don't talk about the color of the button, because that's not what the thing's about. Right. As an executive and as a stakeholder, I want to know whether or not the person actually explored.

This thoroughly and deeply, and understanding what aren't we doing as much as what are we proposing that we do. Do you have any thoughts on how you build context and how you allow folks to have, to your point the right amount of information? Cause I hadn't seen it as a, like biasing them by giving them too much setup. But once you said that, I have to admit that that is real. 

Katie: Yeah. Great question. I agree with you that, I don't know. I guess I could see it a lot of different ways, like in a more setup sometimes  is so critical. So that it's time well spent. But then I do think it's a slippery slope about how much set up you provide, which is one you're, you're taking up valuable time with doing a lot of setup and two, yeah, you're, as I was saying, kind of contaminating their ability to give you, honest unabashed feedback. I think key is always, what is the goal and where are you in the process? Like if you only say two things like as you're set up, I think that is really important because I think that where are you in the process helps to give some insight as to like, should they start nitpicking on word choice and, final fit and finish?

Or is this, this is just, Design review one, and there's going to be several rounds of refinement. And so let's not waste our time on that discussion. Like that is really powerful insight for folks like here today, we're at the concept phase. So the real important thing to get right here is like, do we have the big idea correct? And then we're going to come back to refinement later. I think that's important to say. And then in terms of what is the goal, that's where you help them position themselves? In the seat of the user as best as possible. Right? So here are our goals. So now that person that's reviewing can internalize that and give you critique based on, are you hitting those goals or not, or even, those goals feel, feel wrong.

There definitely is always a tendency. I feel like no matter how well you set it up to have what happened that you described, which is people are rabbit holeing on the, on the wrong thing. And so no matter how great you set it up, you would just be prepared to have to facilitate. And if somebody, it might even be the CEO is sitting there spending all the time, going over here,  you've got to develop your ability to say yes and... thank you for that. Put that over here in the parking lot. I'm gonna note that down. We're gonna come back to you on that or yes, when we move on to refinement phase, we'll absolutely be looking at that. For today's meeting, I want to really make sure we get onto this topic. So what are your thoughts on, cue pointed question over here. 

Josh: You just gave a tip to everyone listening that I think is actually a superpower, which is acknowledging the feedback, capturing it, and then redirecting, right? Like, so acknowledge, capture and redirect that little, because if you don't acknowledge it, I have as human beings, we would like to feel heard. Right. And if you're in a position of any sort of responsibility, I would like to imagine that you think that your opinion is important and it probably is in some way shape or form, but maybe not right now, or maybe not on this thing. And so what you just shared I think is really, really valuable. I'm curious in your mind building off of this. Are there things that really in your experiences made reviews successful? 

Katie: There's a couple of things that I would mention. So one really great tool that I actually learned from, students at Cornell University, is just a method for feedback. And I think that it's really great for maybe, kind of early stage review conversations.

It's a framework that gets you started in and eventually can end up moving away from it. But it's a really powerful if you're like, we need to like restart the way we do reviews. So when I was at Airbnb, Cornell students do an Airbnb project and then they came and shared it with us.

They would draw on the whiteboard, a big two by two matrix. But basically they're just drawing four boxes. That's all that it really is. And four boxes are ideas, questions, positive, feedback, and negative, constructive criticism. And everybody's responsible for putting at least one of each thing down when they see the work.

And so let's say you're showing your work and there's like, 10 people in the room everybody's going to write down, at least four post-its. And they're going to write them down. So now we have all that feedback. So we don't need this kind of normal thing, which happens, which is,   those that are really impatient and potentially type A speaking up first, loudest and longest over everybody else.

Instead everybody has had a chance to kind of voice their sentiment. And if we don't get to everybody, that's also okay, because we have it all written down. But once everybody writes it down, then we can go around the room and ask, okay, let's hear everybody's or, as much as we have time for positive comments, let's hear the negative comments and you also get a lot more thoughtful feedback because of this act of writing it down and then sharing gives people a chance to kind of like self filter. And plus you  might hear, if you hear somebody else had already said that, great, I don't have to say it twice. I'm just going to stack my post-it on theirs. And so we did this after these Cornell students had taught us it and found the quality of our reviews went up quite a bit. We were hearing more, diverse points of view. We were hearing a broader spectrum of input, not just negative or noxious positive, but all the points.

And eventually, we can move away from having the four boxes. It was more natural, but we hadn't built that muscle in that framework really helped us do so. 

Josh: That is really, really cool. I definitely can see how valuable that could become, especially as building a baseline for the design organization itself.

I'm curious, the thought that comes to me in reflecting on this is can you do that asynchronously? Because that does seem like a rather time intensive and human capital intensive activity, and arguably really hard to do when you're in the COVID world that we live in. Have you seen evidence that that's possible in a kind of more asynchronous way or, or do you feel like that's really a critical component of this type of a review process?

Katie: I mean, I have a big fan of like bringing people together, because I think you definitely get that kind of awesome catalyst of thinking when I hear somebody mentioned something and said, Oh yeah, what about this? But absolutely,  there's a degree of that that can be done asynchronously and should be, it's not one or the other. Certainly the ability to comment on work asynchronously allows people to do that. And you can see others comments and, build off of it and add to it. I think one of the things that is not great in a lot of these asynchronous feedback tools is the kind of response like you often get, somebody goes into a document, puts a bunch of comments and then they never look at it again. So they don't see the feedback that someone's like, oh, I heard you right, thank you, but we're not actually doing that right now. Or actually I disagree with you.  I think a lot of tools, they try to let  like, hey, somebody is responding to your comment, but I dunno, I might be alone on this, but I ended up with a lot of those pings in my email and I kind of missed them.

And so, there's something lost in this kind of actual conversation versus people just like spouting out comments into the void that, I think is an opportunity. 

Josh: That's awesome. I wholeheartedly agree with you. It is a, I actually think that is one of the bigger opportunities that we have in front of us in how we can continue to evolve the practice of digital design in particular.

So if you're up for it, I'd love to kind of put ourselves in the headspace of five years from now. And, and we're thinking about digital product design. We're thinking about the life cycle of how we do what we do. What has changed and maybe we'll just kind of keep it constrained to reviews. 

Katie: Well, my hope is that we get closer to reality faster and easier. And I think we're, we're definitely well on our way. Right? I mean, think about the design tools today versus what they were five years ago. Right. We spend an inordinate amount of time, trying to communicate an idea, and that is getting narrower and narrower, which is awesome because then we can spend more time on the thinking of the big idea or that connection to the ramifications of the idea and the the broader ecosystem and, and less time on how do I get,  the icon that we're using across the company for X, Y, and Z, or what is the spacing over here or, And now we can prototype much more quickly.

And I would just love to see that continue to increase, so that a lot of things that we're designing for today, especially in this kind of like connected global universe, right.  You create something that. Yeah, millions of people can use and be impacted on and that can have massive impact on, on what people do.

But there's a lot of negative things that can happen as well. Right? Like, they're also examples of,  inciting riots through a digital platform. It is really hard to understand what the ramifications are of our work today because our tools are so limited. A lot of times folks like to chalk it up to like, well, we didn't know it until we shipped it.

And then people used it in a way that we never thought they could. And it's like, okay, well, how do we get better informed, before we build these products, so that we can create them responsibly and make sure that good behaviors are facilitated and freedom is facilitated.

And our tools today are pretty lacking in that regard.  They, they don't yet paint the picture for us about the impact of scale. And I don't know what that looks like, but in five years I trust that we will get a lot better at it. And people much smarter than me will help build tools that help us better, make better judgment.

Josh: I really appreciate you sharing that, that the scale piece of what you just shared, I think really hits home for me. When it comes to social, if you're building any sort of a digital product that has a social component, and then we've got a decade plus of pretty valuable information of what went wrong, but like there's no resource.

There's no checklists to that point. It may be that it's, it's another piece of, as design has matured and we're bringing operations to bear on how we do our jobs. I can hope that this notion of identifying the challenges of scale and the potential downstream effects for those become part of the questions. And maybe in light of what we're talking about in reviews, it becomes a core part of it is to answer these few critical questions and if we can't answer them, we really shouldn't be going a step further. 

Katie: Think about architecture, for example, like engineers and architects need to be licensed, they need to stamp the plans, right? And they are held accountable. If the bridge falls down or the house isn't earthquake safe or whatever, it might be. Designers today — digital or even industrial design are creating things that billions of people are using and going right back to the beginning of our conversation, have real world ramifications.

Like these aren't just like video games and unconnected worlds. Like these are, it's impacting people's livelihood, it's impacting their health, it's impacting their finances. so we should probably be held accountable for our decisions. And what does that look like?

I don't know, maybe, maybe it is similar to the degree of which the rigor and the education process, as well as the kind of approval process of something like engineering or architecture. 

Josh: I've definitely thought about that over the years as well. So, all right. Five years from now, hopefully we've all leveled up and, and are a lot more aware of the effects and consequences of the decisions we're making.

I like that. I like that as a future, Katie, for, for reviews specifically. If you could impart any last bit of wisdom, which you've already filled this conversation with. but if there's anything else you wanted to say to our listeners, floor's all yours. 

Katie: I think every one of us, no matter what kind of level of seniority we might be or where we are in our careers, I think we should work much harder at being good at reviews and gain, getting feedback. I do think it is a very challenging thing to get. Right.  As we've talked about in this call,  there's the importance of preparing for it and anticipating for it. It's the. Importance of facilitating the conversation. And then of course it's the reality of absorbing that feedback. Everyone loves to say like, don't take it personally. Like, well, that is really, really hard and new because design is very,   emotional and you're building something that is emotional. And so it,   there is a lot there to work on and to constantly try to get better at, feedback is a great thing.

 I don't want to be so trite, but it feedback truly is a blessing and it will make your work and you better a hundred percent like first start by acknowledging that, and then just,  keep working on all those other things, because the better you get at it, the better that feedback gathering experience will be. And  the better you and your work will become. 

Josh: That is awesome. Tying it all the way back to the beginning. There's an element of marrying the curiosity and the humility with that feedback that I think is what, when I'm thinking on it is the most potent combination. And what I've seen, I think really are traits of some of the best designers that I've ever worked with is, is that they're that marriage of humility.

Curiosity and actual desire to receive feedback, whether it's through testing and talking to customers or it's through your, your,  colleagues that you're working with, having that openness and almost inviting it constantly, I think is, is a skill that's worth developing for all of us. 

Katie: A hundred percent.

Josh: That's awesome. All right, Katie, thank you so much for spending time with us. And,  we look forward to more in the future. 

Katie: Thank you. It's so fun chatting.